Wednesday, April 20, 2011

Forum 1500


Jeff said...

CNBC. Constant talk with no information imparted.

Ore em' said...

Well, just because this may have gotten lost in the works in the other forum, I'm going to post it again:

Central Banker Email

For those who don't know, this was an email I sent to a central banker to discuss the topic with him. I have yet to hear a reply.

Thanks again for all past and future comments/critiques on what I could have done better to introduce the topic.

matt said...

We should get the seasonal pullback in the summer. Im making my reservations at the All Inn.

DP said...

@matt: I'm not holding my breath!

Wejn said...


Redhill said...

Thanks for the share. At least Gold is now being discussed on the MSM... but rather incorrectly. :P

costata said...

Re: Gold Silver Ratio

At times my commitment to my New Years resolution is sorely tested. I couldn't help noticing the lively exchange of comments about the GSR on the last thread. Desperado was leading The Charge Of The Light (weight) Brigade as is his wont. Bragging about silver's outperformance over gold in recent times, as reflected in the GSR, while managing (as usual) to entirely miss some important issues (his ideological filter automatically rejects?).

I doubt that anyone who comments here would argue with any of the following statements:

1. If you want to hold silver that's fine with us.
2. "Promoting" silver here over gold is likely to draw criticism.
3. If you want to hold gold and silver and/or other so-called "precious metals" that's fine too.
4. If you want to promote a multi-metal strategy here expect to draw criticism.

There are, however, serious risk assessment issues that need to be addressed if you are holding physical or paper silver with a view to rolling into physical gold at some desired GSR. In other words, if your aim is to obtain (via a GSR arbitrage) physical gold as your ultimate destination.

Let's walk through the risk assessment together. These days the GSR is generally calculated based on the Comex spot price of paper silver and paper gold. According to the CFTC/Comex only around 5 per cent of the annual trade in physical silver is traded on the Comex. The percentage of the worldwide annual trade in physical gold that is traded on the Comex is vastly lower again. You cannot force the Comex to settle in metal. The rules are in place to block any attempt to do so.

Consequently the GSR is a ratio of the Comex spot currency prices of paper silver and paper gold.

To the unthinking, the GSR seems to imply some kind of direct exchange. As in 34 ounces of silver for 1 ounce of gold. Obviously this can happen by way of direct barter. But in most cases it is an indirect exchange. You have to transition through currency, selling one metal for an amount of currency and exchanging that currency for the other metal. The fact that you have been able to do this simultaneously and reliably does not guarantee that you will be able to do so in the future.


costata said...

Many here anticipate the eventual failure of the paper gold market. The paper GSR could be 1:1 if there is a systemic failure in the paper gold markets but that would be a currency ratio not a metal exchange ratio. (FOFOA, Another and FOA have written extensively on this topic. If newbies want some links to the relevant articles please announce it and I'm sure many here will be happy to provide suggestions.)

On the last thread Desperado (as one of his parting shots) triumphantly linked an article by Eric Sprott discussing the GSR (among other things). He should have read it first. If he did read it perhaps he should have asked someone to read it to him. Perhaps that nice lady in the clip that DP sent him would oblige and then she could explain the significance of this statement by Eric Sprott:

"Now, it’s true that another potential source of supply is the very silver that investors already own......."

Yes Eric it could mobilise. Given the silver bugs' fascination with the GSR perhaps the correct response should be "Yes, it will."

For those of us who have physical gold as our ultimate destination the key risks are obvious. We have to weigh the risk that no dealer will want our silver because many other silver holders are trying to exit at the same time.

Secondly, we have to weigh the risk that when we want to exchange silver for physical gold there are no sellers of gold at the paper GSR price, or even worse, no sellers at all.

Desperado ended his endearing comment with this remark to the genial host (no less) of this very blog:

"Put that it your pipe and smoke it, Fofoa."

I'm not as genial and charming as our host, so I would prefer to conclude with this:

Shove it up your arse, Desperado.

victorthecleaner said...


Before we get too arrogant

> Shove it up your arse, Desperado.

we certainly want to get the facts right:

> Consequently the GSR is a ratio of the Comex spot currency prices of paper silver and paper gold.

The COMEX does not have a paper spot price. But you can always phone your broker and purchase physical (gold or silver) from a COMEX dealer. They will mail you a warehouse receipt. Plain old allocated bullion.

'Paper' gold and silver are traded in the OTC market with the bullion banks, but not at the COMEX.



Desperado said...

Costata, our "genial and charming" host can also be quite snarky and even offensive if someone dares to disagree, as in this reply, but he can't hold a candle to you.

I love this incredibly "intelligent" comment of yours:

"4. If you want to promote a multi-metal strategy here expect to draw criticism."

Readers, please take note, only the purest freegold orthodoxy will be tolerated by Costata, otherwise expect "criticism". But know that this "criticism" will actually be a minefield of ad-hominem attacks lurking in a field of strawmen.

And if all of Costata's nastiness isn't enough we are also forced to consider his hypocrisy in talking his own book. He sold all his silver at what, $18/oz? Or should we say he gave up his silver at GSR 1:60.

Costata, you wrote: "For those of us who have physical gold as our ultimate destination the key risks are obvious. We have to weigh the risk that no dealer will want our silver because many other silver holders are trying to exit at the same time.". In your sheer arrogance you cannot accept that it could ever possibly go the other way around, that the time could come where people want to dump their gold to get into silver, as could easily happen due to taxes, laws, or force, or yes, even industrial demand.

Costata, you are an arrogant prick. I have watched you and your gold-obsessed cronies drive away Gordon Gekko, Dork from Cork, Bay of Pigs and other great contributors. Why? Because they weren't worthy enough to worship with the high priest of freegold, Costata the intolerant.

dojufitz said...

Fireworks! lol!

I feel if you have both you will be ok....

most likely alot better off than most people.....

Gold....i'm amazed by.....

Silver i love.......

DP said...

Desperado: Readers, please take note, only the purest freegold orthodoxy will be tolerated by Costata*, otherwise expect "criticism".

* [or by DP and others.]

You need to understand that none of us really cares about convincing you to get out of silver. You have been around here a long time by now, certainly longer than I have, and you continue to refuse to see what we see. To paraphrase myself, I couldn't give a shit!

No, speaking for myself at least, I cannot let it lie when anyone - it just so happens that you are the most prevalent in this - suggests, HERE, that "diversifying" from gold is the best course of action. This is a blog specifically attempting to spread the understanding of the Freegold concept. It's not Hotshot Traders Weekly (aka ZeroHedge), where we all get together to plan our next brawl with the markets, where we will beat it into submission with our massive hairy knuckles, bike chains with nails sticking out of them, and protruding chins.

We attempt to correct what you say, in the context of this blog, for the sake of other people reading this, who might mistakenly take away the idea that silver is anything to do with Freegold, and perhaps live to regret it. Perhaps later blame their misfortune on Freegold, when clearly that would not be correct.

The fact that you, personally, keep on keeping on, insisting on going through this, just leads to recurring frustration. When another new face brings it up, I for one feel like I want to guide them to understand things as we see them, maybe they won't end up accepting it as corect, but at least hopefully they will be able to SEE it. But when you persist in keep coming back and just won't see it, well... ffuxake it's kinda hard to stay reasonable sometimes.

DP said...

VtC: 'Paper' gold and silver are traded in the OTC market with the bullion banks, but not at the COMEX.

Perhaps you can explain for me how there is more metal contracted for sale from COMEX than it is possible to deliver, and yet none of this sold metal is an undeliverable, paper promise? I appear to be misunderstanding and will welcome your correction. Cheers!

Jeff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Indenture said...

Alright People... First and foremost there will be No Profanity in this class.

We must always remember there are younger students silently listening to this discussion and our collective behavior reflects on our host and teacher.

The sign on the door does say 'Freegold' so everyone please check their syllabus.

Thank You.

罗臻 said...

This post on BitCoins at Marginal Revolution has bearing on freegold, as it discusses the medium of exchange/store of wealth issue.

DP said...

@Indenture: Yes, sir!

costata said...


"Alright People... First and foremost there will be No Profanity in this class."

100 ku pucking fer percent agree.

Jeff said...

FOA, for Victor:

But, eventually (perhaps over only one day!) the outside the exchange demand for physical and it's escalating premium, will most likely see legal force from their physical buyers driving long players to demand delivery. Even if it cannot be delivered. Long,,,,,, longggggg,,,, before these delivery demands ever fully surface, comex will state position limits, cash settlement and trade for liquidation only. For you new people, this is exactly what they did during the Hunt silver fiasco. They have to do this because the articles these exchanges were created under manifest these trading places as price setting and price hedging establishments. Where the greatest majority of their trading is meant for cash contract settlement, not physical delivery settlement.

DiverCity said...

Mr. Moldbug's latest query:

For instance: why gold? Why not silver? Or silver and gold? Or, gosh, the good old dollar? It's certainly true that Messrs. Graham and Dodd have nothing to add on the subject. But I feel we can get considerably past Mr. Grant's "uncomplicated formula" - roughly correct though it is.


Our first-order strategy (not, of course, to be construed as financial advice) to game players is thus: of any two competing currencies, hold the appreciating one: that is, the one with the lowest interest rate. As everyone else follows this strategy, the appreciating currency will appreciate even more, until eventually there is only one. Gold is money, silver is stuff.


P.S. I've often wondered at the "connection" between FOFOA and Mr. Moldbug.

Martijn said...

Funny how the focus seams to get a little off of the content here.

On another gold blog I'm following exactly the same happened a few days ago.

And yes, it also involved silver...

Perhaps needless to say that bickering adds relatively little to the discussion.

Martijn said...


Silver certainly is interesting to discuss, but a real discussion involves logic and arguments, not slander.

/SleepingVillage/ said...

Hi, everyone:)

I posted a reply in the previous thread and thought maybe I should now post it here after reading these comments.

"Hah! DP. I know you were being facetious, but silver nuggets are rarely found in alluvial deposits. I have some sexy electrum nuggets, just under 3 ounces. Very rare as specimens. I should almost upload a pic to show you guys. Might please both the silver guys and us gold lovers, due to its nature and composition. They're quite beautiful, but gold nuggets are much sexier:)

Desperado; I just have to say, I suppose it's entirely possible that silver may indeed prove useful in the sense that you(and others) propose. The problem I see is that it is such an incredibly useful metal due to its physical properties. The anti-microbial properties alone will prove it to be of utmost value to us in the future. Think antibiotic resistance, etc. Not to mention it's such a great conductor and whatnot and essential for our electronics... We can't have people hoarding it to store their wealth when gold serves the same purpose! It is simply redundant. Hoarding silver will only drive the price of it to levels that then make it less accessible to all of us, therefore limiting its ability to function in its most suited way. Think about this, it's kind of silly but anyway... We don't currently use dollar bills as the paper source to light a fire, we would use maybe an old newspaper after it has outlived its expiry date. Why would we use silver as a way to preserve wealth, when we already have gold for that?

Anyway, I see where you're coming from, but I just wanted to give you something else to think about.

PS... Thanks to everyone that posts here, you've taught me a lot and I greatly appreciate it. I always try to send people here to learn, if they're looking to expand their understanding of gold and its purpose. I don't post 'cause I don't feel I have much to add, but I sure do read here often.

FOFOA, I'm still gonna send you some of these sexy gold nuggets at the end of summer if all goes as planned. I also would like to share my placer mining stories and experience with your community at some point in the future if anyone's interested."

Yes, I just quoted myself and I swear I heard an echo.


SilverDoctors said...

Cornering the Silver Market is Impossible at Current Prices: Rumors of a corner of silver in process have been s...

victorthecleaner said...


> This is a blog specifically attempting to spread the understanding of the Freegold concept.

Exactly. This is why visitors keep pointing out the flaws in your argument.

> Perhaps you can explain for me how there is more metal contracted for sale from COMEX than it is possible to deliver, and yet none of this sold metal is an undeliverable, paper promise?

COMEX has nothing to do with fractionally reserved unallocated accounts. The futures exchange offers the option of physical delivery. This way, it is coupled by arbitrage to the spot market for physical bullion, but not to that for unallocated bullion, should these two prices ever disagree.

Every holder of a COMEX short position can close this position in the futures market before First Notice Day if they do not wish to deliver.


> FOA, for Victor:
> [...] Long,,,,,, longggggg,,,, before these delivery demands ever fully surface, comex will state position limits, cash settlement and trade for liquidation only. For you new people, this is exactly what they did during the Hunt silver fiasco.

This is highly misleading. (By the way, I am not a religious follower, and so I do feel free to point out errors in Another's, FOA's or FOFOA's argument).

The Hunts did not have a fully funded long position. They did not hold it into the Notice Period. They held the futures on margin.

I agree that the Fed and Treasury did not like what the Hunts did. I agree that they desperately needed every possible way of getting the (paper and physical) prices of gold and silver down.

But suggesting that the Hunts stood for physical delivery and were shut out by a change of rules, is simply not correct. In fact, the Hunts were apparently over leveraged and therefore formed an easy target that the Fed/Treasury/Wall Street banks could squeeze out of the market.

If the exchange orders "trading for liquidation only", this means that no positions can be opened. But any long who is fully funded, can of course, keep their position. The Hunts lost because with "trading for liquidation only" the price tanked, and they got margin calls because they were not fully funded.


victorthecleaner said...

Addendum for those who write about COMEX but do not know how it works:

Every single silver bar in the COMEX vaults is owned by a single market participant. The 'registered' silver is owned by the dealers and market makers. The 'eligible' silver is owned by customers. If I phone my broker and asks them to purchase some COMEX silver (the actual silver, not a futurs contract) for my account, you will probably see that some of the COMEX silver is reclassified from 'registered' to 'eligible' (unless they match my purchase with the sale by another customer).

Finally, the amount of silver that can be delivered to the longs it not limited to the 'registered' inventory contrary to what a popular although usually incorrect blog claims. Whenever some customer (as opposed to a dealer or market maker) is short and wishes to deliver, they can take COMEX certified 'eligible' bars they own or they can truck additional silver to one of the warehouses and have it assayed. It will then magically appear as new 'registered' silver.


Desperado said...


"Silver certainly is interesting to discuss, but a real discussion involves logic and arguments, not slander."

But that is precisely the problem Martijn, trying to discuss silver on this blog will just get you slandered unless you are dissing it in favor of gold. Trust me, I know:

"That's because you prefer exciting, low-probability theories like this to the more boring, mundane analysis of observable reality...
Way to be on the forefront of rationality...
if it makes you feel better about being an American expat...
it is certainly not the cutting edge of rational thought...
The view is pretty clear from up here. Enjoy the trees. While they are quite unique and impressive in their own regard, its easy to get lost down there...
finds talk of silver not being a leveraged play on gold upsetting...
he should have asked someone to read it to him...
We attempt to correct what you say, in the context of this blog..."

You see Martijn, these guys don't want to discuss silver, they want to play ostrich and pretend it doesn't exist. Costata said "I doubt that anyone who comments here would argue with any of the following statements:... 4. If you want to promote a multi-metal strategy here expect to draw criticism."

And as I have made clear above, "criticism" here is little more than ad hominem attacks and flaming straw men.

@/SleepingVillage/ "I suppose it's entirely possible that silver may indeed prove useful in the sense that you(and others) propose." Thank you for great concession. Unfortunately, discussing the relative potential of silver's "monetary utility" is related to other sacred cows at this blog.

Over said...

I do enjoy gold...but silver, will surprise many of you.

Don't let your love, or bias, hide the truth of what is really playing out in front of your eyes.

GSR to single digits is a given!

5:1 quite reasonable as well...

1:1 is quite a possibility as well, all of it caused by an "overshoot" which has been built in with the unthinkable suppression schemes/shenanigans that have taken place in the last 40 years.

Think Gold is highly undervalued?
Silver will leave you in shock...

One day it will look normal..we are still a ways from it, yet!

/SleepingVillage/ said...


Did you read the rest of my post? It would be unwise to only take certain parts of an argument to back up your position. You would therefore be suffering from the very same thing you claim "we" are all suffering from. Do you understand?


Jeff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DP said...

VtC: Addendum for those who write about COMEX but do not know how it works

Thanks - I certainly bow to your detailed knowledge of the COMEX operations.

However, your explanation still hasn't shown me how there is no synthetic supply of "gold" in that market. It also hasn't told me where your external guaranteed supply of additional registered inventory will come from. Perhaps I am simply being incredibly dense (always possible), but it would appear Jeff also shares my still-unclear understanding. Perhaps you can try again, just for the sake of us couple of clueles bozos? (And thousands of onlookers) Many thanks!

Jeff said...


I believe you take delivery of a COMEX contract, no? So there is in fact a risk of forced cash settlement, etc. You says 'every bar has an owner' which is true, but every contract certainly does not have a bar

FOA again, Victor:

FOA: Tell me sir, if I placed $20,000 down and shorted (sold) ten 100 ounce contracts,,,,,, and had no gold of my own to back up my bet,,,,,, and I failed,,,,, Exactly how does Comex go about extracting 1,000 ounces from others accounts to make good on my bet? Do they buy it? Or do they just take it? Or do they keep a buffer of several thousand ounces to cover failed traders? It seems to me that in the event of a crisis, "noone" that owns all that gold in approved storage might want to sell it? I guess this begs the question, if all that gold is owned, what good does it do in making credible excess, outstanding contracts? Those above and beyond "eligible" holdings sold outright. You know, the ones that far and beyond represent gold, as you say! But only have margin cash behind them. (smile)

Texan said...

Desperado, I for one like most of your comments.

However, whenever you or someone else starts talking about silver I just skim through it.

FWIW, I happen to agree that silver is remonetizing, acting as sort of a " poor man's gold" . But I don't really care, because lots of commodities are remonetizing. Heck there are apparently Chinese hoarding stacks of copper in their apartments! I also read recently that Argentines are hoarding LCD TVs, of all things.

What I am most concerned with, and why I come to this blog and read the excellent comments ( including yours), is to learn more about the concept of gold as a store of wealth, and what events will precipitate further recognition of this event ( or timeline), and how society will organize after.

So while it doesn't bother me if you want to talk about silver, i think what you had said in the past about gold is way more interesting.

And to everyone out there, let's please try and tone it down . This is a fun and informative site and we are all guests of FOFOA.

Robert said...

As a self-admiited guy still trying to understand Freegold, I see no problem at all in discussing silver and/or platinum. I hold both of the others, but the bulk of my PMs is in gold!

I am amazed as most of you by the spectacular run silver has had. I will be trading SOME silver for gold soon. I am not in the camp that the GSR will go to single digits, but what does a Bearing know? The most interesting argument for a GSR of 1:1 (or silver being priced 10 x gold) is by ZH-er tekhneek.

Because the future is so hard to predict, I diversify. I diversify even though I do believe FOFOA is right, that gold is the wealth preserver in town. But, none of us is God.

I really DO look forward to seeing who has the last laugh: silver bugs or we FOFOA fans.

Ender said...

Sliver of light of metal it makes
Leave one wanting for heavenly mistakes
Of grass or water it carries its weight
And sunlight reflects and mirrors it makes.
Slow it rolls over and presents wrapped tight
Trade if you can to make it right
For the point has come to flex some muscle
Watch out for paper my little brother

Gold foil treasures my fellow advocates. He that holds physical will not burn in the fire!

helix_mechanic said...

As a lurker and newbie to Freegold, I want to thank FOFOA for this place and for all those contributing thoughtful and intelligent dialogue. BTW, nicely said, Texan..

For me, this personal transformation from fiat culture-to-pass to gold culture-to-come has been hard work and, at the same time, very pleasurable - as with any time one moves away from a lie and into the truth. I Look forward to more following in the footsteps of, and lurking among, giants. :)

Terry said...

SleepVillage said"
Desperado; I just have to say, I suppose it's entirely possible that silver may indeed prove useful in the sense that you(and others) propose. The problem I see is that it is such an incredibly useful metal due to its physical properties. The anti-microbial properties alone will prove it to be of utmost value to us in the future. Think antibiotic resistance, etc. Not to mention it's such a great conductor and whatnot and essential for our electronics... We can't have people hoarding it to store their wealth when gold serves the same purpose! It is simply redundant. Hoarding silver will only drive the price of it to levels that then make it less accessible to all of us, therefore limiting its ability to function in its most suited way. Think about this, it's kind of silly but anyway... We don't currently use dollar bills as the paper source to light a fire, we would use maybe an old newspaper after it has outlived its expiry date. Why would we use silver as a way to preserve wealth, when we already have gold for that?"
The lack of utility value of gold won't fly. Gold is 1 of 13 metals in the Platinum group of exotic metals that, when gold's uses get out, will stupify the world.

Blondie said...


I think everyone would do well to read and (re)consider this. It is practically impossible to avoid, so should always be in the back of every mind, including my own. Refresh your memory while you have the page open.

Regarding the future of silver vs gold:

Is there any reason why comex could not order silver or gold "trading for liquidation only" a'la Hunt brothers at any future point?

Indeed, is this not a possible (probable?) mechanism by which paper and physical are ultimately (publicly and visibly) parted, when the exchange either cannot deliver or attempts to stop the spot price meltup?

Here is the chart of the GSR. Note that it is the $Gold:$Silver ratio, not the Gold:Silver ratio. It is the ratio between the two as their prices are currently discovered in a hybrid paper/physical market.

Our interest lies in the ratio, and in the function of each metal, in a physical only market. It is (or should be) understood by readers here that the current hybrid market is, along with the dollar, approaching its conclusion.

The pertinent point for consideration is the respective stocks and flows in both gold and silver in a physical only market, after the hybrid price peaks and drops, just like 1980.

This is where the rubber meets the road, and speculative/weak/ignorant hands are exposed. Will there be more of these in one metal than the other? Why are these hands holding? How much stock panics and flows into the market, and ultimately what does the physical:physical ratio reveal itself as?

Total volume in existence is meaningless. Stock to flow ratios are everything. Silver vs Gold should be viewed in this context, not that of the dollar. It is easy to get excited about dollar prices; we all have a lifetime of conditioning to get past.

Personally I find it hard to go past Occam's Razor in this type of analysis.

All else being equal, we only need one wealth reserve asset, one store of value par excellence.

Edwardo said...

A very astute and succinct riposte, Costata. Bravo. As someone who owns silver, some of which has been swapped out, the concerns you raise have been very much on my mind.

/SleepingVillage/ said...

Terry, I don't really understand what you mean. Do you mean that we will discover some revolutionary use for gold in the future, or that we have one now? I would agree that gold certainly has some industrial value, but in most cases it is only very small amounts of gold, and certain other metals will serve a similar function almost equally.


Terry said...

Discovery made in 1975 that is being suppressed by the DOD by one David Radius Hudson.

Terry said...

Sleeping Village,
I,m sorry, I didn't expect to get that by the spam filter. Hudson was granted patents in Several European countries as well as Australia, but not the USA because of a DOD tag on his application.

/SleepingVillage/ said...

Thanks, Terry. I'm familiar with Monoatomic gold. Correct me if I'm wrong, but again, it uses very small amounts of gold, does it not? Therefore making it negligible in the grand scheme of things in the context of my previous point.

Just to expand on the industrial uses of gold.... Gold could still be used industrially, medically, etc in applications that ONLY it is suitable for and nothing else could be efficiently substituted. It can after all, be recycled. Perhaps some sort of concession could be made in some way if we discovered a use that was absolutely beneficial to mankind. You know, a deposit subsidy type deal or something, recoverable upon recycling said gold.


Terry said...

Sleeping Village,
Are you familiar with WPG being a Rm Temp spr cndctr?

Rory said...
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Ore em' said...
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Rory said...
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Ore em' said...
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/SleepingVillage/ said...

Terry, we could have some fun and interesting conversations:) RT superconductivity is in the realm of Cold-Fusion:) I assure you my mind is very open to such things. If indeed ONLY gold could be used as a Room Temperature Superconductor, then that may certainly change my outlook somewhat, depending on the logistics involved. As it is now, I'm not quite ready to take that step.

The so-called Noble metals and gases are incredibly fascinating to me. I believe we have much to learn about them in the future. However, we're getting off topic here so I will leave it at that.


Terry said...

Sleeping Village,
"The Lost Secrets of the Ancient Ark" is an excellant read and will give you a different perspective on gold. David Hudson's patent was denied, here in the US, because he listed WPG as a room temp super conductor and the DOD had to approve the application for that reason. They made him prove he could convert gold to its monatomic state, which he did. They told him he had to convert WPG back into its solid state in order to get the patent. He declined their offer. But he was granted the patent in France, England, and Australia, as a room temp super conductor. The story gets even more interesting when you hear the connection to the Sumerian tablets, and the Ark of the Covenant.

Texan said...

Terry, please tell the full story... It is a very long weekend, and it sounds fascinating.

Indenture said...

Thanks DiverCity

Mencius Moldbug's On monetary restandardization

/SleepingVillage/ said...


Very cool. I found a link to a video so I'll check it out later. Might get the book, too.

I wonder why he has never went into production in one of the countries that he holds the patent? RTSC would have some pretty useful applications.


Terry said...

To suppress the info about a RTSC, the destroyed his manufacturing plant and he secluded himself. The medical benefits he wanted the people to have and not the pharmacological industry. Plus he used acid in the conversion and his acid storage was sabatoged and caused a spill and every government agency was all over him.
this is a link to a lecture he gave in 1994. It's a 6 part audio and is about six hours with the good stuff at the end.

Terry said...

Sleeping Village,
That's a good video, but there is so much more. I have been researching this for the last six years and have found the most amazing information. Gardener doesn't cover all of it, but the info is worth all the reading I had to do to get where I am. But, I was buying gold in the seventies. The point is, I consider gold to be the most valuable element in the Universe.

Terry said...

I suspect the whole story is too long and not pertinent to Freegold. I would love to tell the story. I just think this is not the place, and I don't know where I can freely talk about it, and not feel as though I am imposing. I have probably overstayed my welcome as is.

Terry said...

Well, I can be encouraged to tell the story of David Radius Hudson. I suppose someone can tell me to stop.

David Hudson got a degree in law at USC (I think that's where) and even passed the bar in California. But for some reason he wound up as a farmer in Arizona, where he had to use acid to coerce the soil to absorb water. His farm had some old gold mining property on it, and his interest in gold (to preserve his over production) led him to heap leech mining. Remember, I am condensing this a lot. Any how, during the process he would wind up with a white powder. When he put a stack of the powder in the sun to dry, it would explode, but with a flash of light and no noise or force. He even stood a pencil on end next to a pile of the powder, and the flash would scorch the pencil but not knock it over.

It was during this time his uncle told him about a book on alchemy mentioning a white powder gold.

He took the powder to several places of high reputation for spectroanalysis, and he was told that the substance was nothing (effectively). During the processing, the powder would change weight and finally lose 5/6s of its weight. He also discovered that, at one point the sample and the dish it was on, went to negative weight. Also the substance would disappear and reappear during processing.

Terry said...

Skipping a lot of info, he found that he could get the platinum group metals out of the soil in higher concentrations than you get in the average mining operation. He took some of his platinum (that analyzed as nothing) to the fuel cell division of GE and the made a functional fuel cell out of it. He also went to the head of the physics dept at the University of Texas and was told that the powder was going into another dimension when it disappeared and the powder would facilitate faster than light travel someday. Anyhow, he wanted to provide it to the public at a reasonable price, so he started his own factory in Arizona, but the Government ruined him. Plus, during the processing of the powder, gamma rays are emitted. Now you know why the DOD wanted it, so the could make a bomb that would kill people but not destroy property.

Terry said...

I left out the part about the tremendous medical benefits, which were his reason for wanting to sell to the public. Those benefits are even more interesting.

FOFOA said...

Hi Terry,

That's some really amazing stuff! You even got me Googling it. And as you say, tremendous medical benefits!...

"White Powder Gold (WPG) is made from gold. The refining process is fairly straight forward but it requires expensive equipment and an excellent command of analytical chemistry.

WPG can be classified the same as other precious metals such as Rhodium, Cesium etc. Beyond this relation to the periodic table WPG exhibits significant differences. First it is a super-conductor, that is to say that under laboratory testing it proved to have no resistance, in fact no voltage was absorbed. Voltage passed through it when it matched the sample's (WPG) frequency.

When mixed with water WPG forms a gelatinous mixture. When ingested it has the following affects:

"Every cell in your body will be taken back to the state it is supposed to be, when you were a teenager or a child. It perfects the DNA, and closes the light within the body until you literally reach a point where the light body exceeds the physical body."

"The gifts that go with this are perfect telepathy, you can know good and evil when it is in the room with you, you can project your thoughts into someone else's mind, you can levitate, you can walk on water, because it is flowing so much light in you, you literally don't attract to gravity."

There is much more to this substance that I will leave out for now. The link to the past is this: "There is some material from ancient Egypt that provides some insight into this white powder, it is called the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Papyrus of Ani, by Budge. This is the oldest book of the Dead, found about 3500 BC in the tomb of Pepi the 2nd. It says, I am purified of all imperfections, what is it?"


FOFOA said...

Oops. Forgot the link.

David Hudson - The white powder gold

I hope this doesn't ping back to the DOD servers and land me on their watch list.

JR said...

Deadly Panacea
What led an AIDS patient to inject a substance manufactured from common dirt into her blood stream?

That night, Bill Burroughs told Krupp that her daughter had carried HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, for 11 years. She had contracted it from sperm used to artificially inseminate her. Although stricken, she had been extremely lucky--taking care of herself, staying fit, somehow delaying the onset of the infections that inevitably kill.

But Leslie's disease was only the first in a series of boggling revelations.
Krupp would soon learn that her daughter's coma was not induced by AIDS, but by a treatment suggested to her by a doctor who had become her last, desperate hope for survival. This treatment had, until then, undergone only the crudest of testing--on a sick dog and two other AIDS patients, all of whom later died.

The purported miracle cure involved injecting into Burroughs' blood stream a substance manufactured out of dirt. The production site? A farmer's barn.

For Leslie Burroughs, the cure was worse than the disease. Authorities would list the cause of death as a massive infection, triggered by swarms of bacteria in the substance the doctor had told her to take.

Her death is vivid testimony to the lengths to which mortally ill people will go in the hope of a miracle cure


Martha Krupp has her own answers.
Though two years have passed since she lost her daughter, she barely conceals her contempt for Dr. David LaVon Payne, the Mesa osteopath in whose hands Leslie placed her life. The state Board of Osteopathic Examiners censured Payne and placed him on five years' probation for his treatment of Leslie Burroughs, but he continues to practice medicine to this day.

Krupp's views are equally unambiguous about David Hudson, an enigmatic farmer-cum-New Age guru who claims to have discovered a DNA-repairing miracle cure in his soil--and who has now embarked on a campaign to mass-produce it.

"He's like some mad scientist," Krupp says, "and the scary thing is, he's still out there."

When he's not on the road, telling rapt audiences about the life-sustaining substance he makes from ordinary dirt, "out there" for David Radius Hudson is the farming village of Laveen, southwest of Phoenix. For three generations, his family has raised cotton and alfalfa in the shadow of the Sierra Estrella.



JR said...

Though she would have liked to have seen stronger action taken against Payne, Martha Krupp says she is not surprised that his medical license was not yanked by the board.

"AIDS patients are largely viewed as throwaway people," Krupp says. "The prevailing sentiment, at least until recently, seemed to be, 'Well, they're all going to die eventually, so what difference does it make how or when they go?'"

Ever since David Hudson wound up on the losing end of the civil suit filed by Leslie Burroughs' mother and husband, he has stopped giving his miracle cure to people who hope to conquer diseases or achieve spiritual enlightenment or gain the ability to read men's hearts and minds.

Instead, for $500, those hoping to better themselves can now purchase a "membership" in the Science of the Spirit Foundation, a Tempe-based outfit that works in conjunction with ORMES, Ltd., a company founded by Hudson to help fund the construction of a $2.5 million plant aimed at producing--you guessed it--ORMEs.

According to the literature, ORMES, Ltd., will hand over 25 percent of the plant's output to Science of the Spirit once the facility goes online in 1997. Science of the Spirit will then distribute the "sacramental" material to its members.

But before those life-giving shipments can begin, a prospective member must sign a waiver aimed at indemnifying Hudson against every conceivable calamity.

Now, it's time for David Radius Hudson to help himself.
Which leaves just one question: If the substance Hudson stumbled across 14 years ago is truly the elixir of life, if it has the power to "correct the DNA and perfect the body," as he has repeatedly said, why does its discoverer still have to take medication to control his blood pressure?

From the tone of Kathryn Hudson's voice, such questions are absurd.
"Oh, he never takes it himself," she explains. "He never thought there was anything wrong with him.

Terry said...

You are aware that The DOD has admitted that they hire people to dispense dis-information. David Hudson is just one part of the most amazing story I have ever heard. I personally have been taking WPG since I discovered I had non-Hodgkin's lymphoma as a result of agent orange and had one of my kidneys removed. My bride (who suffers from severe arthritis) and I, have been consuming WPG for 2 yrs, and have found that WPG helps better than anything we have found. Plus I am in remission now for three years. I feel that I am smarter but I know I am grasping for straws.

The Video posted by Sleeping Village, though long, is well worth a watch. I did see where it is going to be pulled the 29th of this month, and I don't know how to copy it. You have to watch the video to get what all WPG is capable of. I am just trying to show that as opposed to popular belief, gold has utility value.

FOFOA, Thanks for being so gracious with your blog.

Terry said...


Yes, there has been misuse. We don't know how much of the ORMUS to ingest, we do know the Egyptians baked a conical loaf of bread, containing the WPG. And, only the ruling elite had access to it. But, if you read Gardener's book, you'll find that Moses people subsisted on it (as Manna) for forty years. And if you want to hear the really interesting part, The Essenes were producing WPG at Qumran for fifteen hundred years, and Jesus and His mother ,Mary, were Essenes.

Terry said...

I have the Book of the Dead by Budge, and it is beyond my limited intellectual ability. I do know that it was supposedly dictated by one of the Anunnaki, Marduk, oldest son of Enki. There is a clay tablet that says that when he and his human bride walked down the streets of Jorden, they glowed, a sign of the consumption of WPG. The angel,(a misinterpretation of the word "messenger") Gabrial, was said to glow also. Gabrial was the oldest son of Enki's brother, Enlil. They were the ruling elite. (According to the Sumerian clay tablets) Gabrial also appeared to Constantine, and convinced him to destroy the library of Alexandria.
OK, I'll quit now.

Robert Leroy Parker said...

Many of you are probably aware of the following potential medical usage of gold.

Several years back there was a sixty minutes episode that detailed an experimental cancer therapy in which colloidal gold molecules are injected into cancerous regions of a subject. The atoms are then heated with radio waves and the preliminary results showed that the cancer cells were destroyed while healthy cells were left intact. Here is the wiki link.

Kanzius RF Therapy

It says clinical trials are expected next year.

I have never heard of white powder gold, but perhaps when it is in solution, it is the same substance as the colloidal gold used for this treatment.

Paul said...

please continue terry

Terry said...

Colloidal is not like WPG. WPG is gold's most pure form. Colloidal gold is still a metal, and as such contains an impurity, such as an iron atom, keeping it as a metal. WPG is a white powder found abundantly in nature as the essence of anti-oxidants. Hudson said it is more prevalent in vegetables, especially in carrots grown in southern Texas. But, he even produced ORMUS and the platinum group metals from a pigs brain, in the same percentages as was found in the dirt.

Robert Leroy Parker said...


What do you mean the essence of anti-oxidants?

Anti-oxidants have well known molecular structures and I do not recall ever seeing gold in any redox reactions.

Robert Leroy Parker said...

I should say involving oxygen radicals.

Terry said...

There is so much more to the story that it has to be acquired through due dilligence. The rest of the story is much more interesting, but requires a mind able to digest the info, and decide what to use. And you can't pare it down too much because the detail is what ties it all together and makes it believable. I can only dispense the rest when I sense a willingness to learn something completely unknown to most, without scaring the audience away. I'm sorry to be so cryptic. But I will tell you this, for me it has cleared all the major questions that I have ever had. I understand the history of the world as I have never before.

Terry said...

I'm sorry, I know nothing about oxygen radicals. Nor have I seen it related to WPG. Another indication that my elevator doesn't get to the top :-0

Robert Leroy Parker said...

No worries, my knowledge of chemistry is very specified so I can't discount anything. But I hope whatever you are ingesting is a purified substance and not taken directly from the dirt. Eating dirt is a good way to get E. coli or Enterobacter. Goodnight.

Terry said...

Thank you sir and to all, good night.

Matt said...

on the topic of ormus, a green nutritional supplement i've been consuming for the past couple of months is touted as high in ormus:

"Sunwarrior Ormus Supergreens is grown in a pristine ancient sea bed in a volcanic region of Utah and Arizona. The soil is loaded with platinum, gold, silver, and ORMUS trace minerals giving the greens a magnetic property which increases the vibration and frequency of those who consume it."

probably the best 'super green' supplement out there. there's a video on youtube where some guys show a solution of the stuff to have dramatically higher conductivity than an alternative green vegetable powder.

SilverHead said...


where can we get this WPG like you have been ingesting? And how much and how often is it recommended you take it?

Anthemius said...

Hi Terry - I concur that your story is fascinating and I hope WPG continues to aid you. Doing some googling I find myself reading reviews of books on amazon that i remember i've read before and wanted to look into but didn't known if it was nonsense or not. Would you suggest starting with the "Lost secrets of the Sacred Ark" book you mention above? Any other hints you might give about looking into this further?

Ore em' said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Terry said...


4 drops/day

Just remember, there is no way of verifying the authenticity of the product, or the results. Gardener recommended the above and that is who I have used for the duration. We (bride and I) find it to be very good for arthritis.


I would start with Michael Tellinger's book, "Adams Calendar". Noah Cramer is also an excellent choice. I am reluctant to point you to the prime source because of the dis-information that is rampant on the Internet. For some reason, the ruling elite don't want this info to spread. The lost secrets of the ancient ark gives you the connection to gold, that you have to connect in your own mind. This sort of reminds me of the golden trail so often quoted here. I have a better reading list of 12-to-15 books but sequence is important. The gold connection was the switch that made me see the light. Just a hint, in the London museum are seven clay tablets, written in cuneiform, that are the earliest known recorded stories. The Title is "Enuma Elish", and they contain 1) The Epic of Creation, and 2) the Epic of Gilgamesh. These tablets are dated to at least a thousand years before Christ. But this story is the Mother of conspiracy theories, but recorded on clay tablets.

Ore em'

I can give you more because the medicinal properties are not the most important part of this tale. I'll lead into it next.

Ore em' said...

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but is Terry perhaps mocking me/us?

"There is so much more to the story that it has to be acquired through due dilligence. The rest of the story is much more interesting, but requires a mind able to digest the info, and decide what to use. And you can't pare it down too much because the detail is what ties it all together and makes it believable. I can only dispense the rest when I sense a willingness to learn something completely unknown to most, without scaring the audience away. I'm sorry to be so cryptic. But I will tell you this, for me it has cleared all the major questions that I have ever had. I understand the history of the world as I have never before."

If I were trying to make fun of the person who told me about Freegold, that is probably how I'd go about it. Don' worry, I have thick skin, as do most of us Freegolder's.

Ore em' said...

Terry wrote:

Ore em'

I can give you more because the medicinal properties are not the most important part of this tale. I'll lead into it next.

This was in response to my original post (directly above his), which I removed and pared down. In it, I had called him a snake oil salesman, but I deleted it so my other point about him perhaps mocking us wouldn't get lost in the shuffle.

But, Terry was too quick and responded before I could get it all done. He was all over me like a fat kid on a smartie.

The gist of what I said? I am open to ideas like RLP said about Kunsler RF, because it's being done by actual scientists and businesspeople. I'm even open to ideas that there are as-yet not understood by us. I am even far, far more open to the idea of human conspiracy (because there are, you know, thousands of people convicted of conspiracy every single year). But this type of stuff is bordering on nonsense, in my opinion. Looking back up at the quote FOFOA used, I think, as always, he has said it better than I.

Terry said...

Ever since I read The Greek mythologies, I have been struck by the thought that they appeared to be written as truth, not mythology. Well, archaeology has found the city of Troy, meaning that the Trojan War is fact, not fiction, and implying that there was interaction between man and the Gods. Archaeology has also dug up many Sumerian tablets that are just now being fully interpreted, thanks to one Samuel Noah Cramer and others. Take the dig at Nineveh where in excess of 30,000 clay tablets, cataloged and indexed by King Ashurbanipol himself. Anyhow, what story the tablets tell is what are important, plus what we see everyday but which are mostly overlooked. I promise that I yearn to discuss this subject before my time is up. But what I have read in the area are cannot be easily condensed down to several paragraphs. Yes, Ore em, I agree, I will try to stop. Thanks

Ore em' said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ore em' said...

Terry, far be it for me to censor you, and I only wished to do so if you were "trolling" us. Reading your comments, it's certainly possible you believe all of this wholeheartedly. And you are to be commended for following your inquisitive mind.

But, as I said in my redacted post, I have an unabiding passion for, and love affair with, logic and reason. As, I would suggest, do many of my fellow Freegolders. For me, at least, that is why I find consuming from the A/FOA/FOFOA "fountain of knowledge" so rewarding.

All I suggest is that you, and others, apply a more critical eye to the (many) glaring holes in that "story". Not to say there is no truth in it at all, and I understand full well the concepts of propaganda and disinformation, and believe them to be tactics still in use today. I just think that my BS detector is sitting on "stinky" at the moment for a good reason.

Terry said...

The point that I so clumsily was trying to make, is that gold has a history from the earliest memories of man, and man has been associated with gold since the first homo sapien sapien.

sean said...

I can't help wondering if monatomic silver would help me leverage the beneficial properties of monatomic gold.

radix46 said...

I have a limited one time offer for the commenters on this post. I have developed a radical new product, utilising the 49th most abundant element on the planet, leveraging its properties in order to protect the contents of the cranial cavity from destructive and intrusive emissions from malevolent entities wishing to control us all.

It comes with a pointy top and an elastic chin strap to secure it in place. For an extra fee, a set 1/2 inch thick lens glasses can be included for full effect.

Paul said...

guess we will have to wait for another 8,6 years ...

so terry, to kill those years, what are you smoking ?

Terry said...

I'm sorry, I promised Ore em I wouldn't tell :-)

Blondie said...


You have a blog with no entries.

Why not put together you views, which you can edit and expand upon at your leisure there, not to mention discuss with others in the comments in a far less guarded fashion than you are obliged to here.

You have a perspective which you are clearly passionate about, and of interest to others. The internet has a lot of unutilized function.

sean said...

Thanks whoever posted the link to the latest Martin Armstrong newsletter. From this newsletter, I'm pleased to see that now he's been released from prison he no longer has to draw graphs by hand, but has upgraded to a Commodore 64. (no offense intended - it sounds like his incarceration was a shocking miscarriage of justice).

Indeed, his theories are intriguing, but one (of quite likely many) things I don't understand about his theory of cycles: On one hand, he seems to say they are fundamental and immutable, but on the other, he says that Japan/Bernanke/etc manage to delay the inevitable with their interventions. So what is it that drives the cycles which lead to phase transitions after specific periods, and if a transition is delayed, what makes it "wait" until the next cycle? Can anyone help?

Terry said...

Thanks Blondie, finding it is impressive, as are all of your posts. I find I don't have the necessary skills to run a blog. And I am totally devoted to this one. It is inflating to think that I can hang with you guys, even in a passive state.

Ore em' said...

1/3 (probably)

Well, seeing as how I'm not 100% sure that I'm even intelligent enough to operate the comment software, perhaps I should refrain from posting. Then again, lack of intelligence hasn't thus far stopped some others....

One of the people I'm "prosthelytizing" to about Freegold mentioned it to an "expert" on money, and got the following reply (and, in the tradition of Another, all grammar is in the original, unedited format):

But here is some feedback I received from someone I trust in this area. Hope you have thick skin!


familiar will all the sources quoted (except anonymous internet posters), read books on subject, etc. Basically, I'm not willing to spend additional time on it... time that I do not have. I came to a realization a while back that this type of discussion is entertaining, but useless. No disrespect, but feel this fellow will go thru exact process I did (since 1994, rather than just 2.5 yrs) and conclude same. In ~ 2 or 3 yrs, he'll realize he's just wasted 5 yrs of his life ignoring the true methods of accumulating and protecting wealth. Alternatively, he may end up buying a bunker, stocking it w/ food & weapons, and living there. Who wants that

Well, if that wasn't fuel to my Freegold fire, nothing will be. So, I replied. Which I'll post in two coming messages, and which is also here on scribd (I'm too html stupid/lazy to hardcode, so copy and paste it is):

Ore em' said...

Here is my reply:
Fear not, I am alligator-skinned.
The ad hominem rebuttals and rejection from people who have done well within the existing monetary paradigm are not difficult for me to take. When the other "wealthy" people I know have brought these ideas to their personal wealth advisors, they have gotten responses that might as well have been verbatim of what you got. The same holds true when discussing it with older people who have done very well in the stock market over the past 30-40 years. Just as it would have been very difficult to convince a guy holding his 200$ stock, circa 1998, that his "wealth" was in fact nothing more than an illusion, it's difficult today to convince people who have never even considered the idea of the death of the dollar-based global economy that they're "portfolio" of digital units might someday disappear in an instant. Such is the fate of those suffering from 30 years of confirmation bias. More on this "death" in a minute.
As for "true methods of accumulating and protecting wealth", I think it's fair to say I'm already fairly well-versed in such matters. I have not adopted this "voodoo" economic perspective due to lack of insight or understanding of the traditional/mainstream wealth creation perspectives. I have taken finance, I have an MBA, I understand valuation models. I’ve been involved in managing money, etc. I've done a financial modeling seminar from a well-known company, Wall St. Prep, designed to prepare students for doing the exact same thing at investment banks.
All of which is to say, I've peaked behind the curtain. What I found was mostly smoke and mirrors, mixed in with a healthy dose of sleight of hand. Hence, my rejections of their dogmatic truths' from the canon of wealth creation are, I believe, well-founded. So, just as I am highly unlikely to revert back to Christianity since my wholehearted adoption of Atheism, I highly doubt I'll be having a future financial "come to Jesus" moment where I just wish I'd listened to Warren Buffett all along. Of course, just as the re-appearance of Jesus Christ in bodily form descended from the heavens would cause me to seriously re-appraise my religious choices, if the current economic system turns back the monetary tsunami staring us plainly in the face for the next, say, 15 years, I will forever believe that somehow the laws of human economic reality have been forever altered by the Gods of Money, and will thereafter bow down accordingly.

Ore em' said...

Until then, I'll continue to rely on my logic and understanding of history to know that traditional approaches to wealth management are irrelevant at times of systemic monetary transition, and that this system, like all others, comes with a finite life expectancy. And it is important that you understand that by this I don't mean "death" as in we're all going to go back to a barter economy and there will be Mad Max type situations where we all live in bunkers. The bunker comments are exactly what I mean by ad hominem "attacks" - instead of actually considering the information and oferring well-thought out rebuttals, he just rejects my theories outright through the use of a straw man argument. When did I say we're going to end up in bunkers?
I'm not even suggesting there will be a regression in our monetary system back to the time of a fixed-exchange rate gold backed currency. In fact, this is exactly what I DON'T mean. What I'm saying is that someday we'll come to look back on the current system as the Mad Max one. Another way to look at it is as a caterpillar turning into a butterfly, as silly as that sounds. What is happening is not monetary death; it's monetary EVOLUTION. This is not a step backwards, it's a huge step forward. This evolution is needed because storing your earned excess economic production in a continually depreciating unit of account like the fiat dollar is, quite frankly, stupid. I mean, the very foundation of your wealth leaks away 2-3% of sand per year in purchasing power, at least. And this is to ignore the giant elephant in the room, namely that every other such fiat foundation in history has eventually gone from 2-3% debasement per year (which your friend would term "inflation" is actually monetary debasement), to exponentially higher debasement.
Why do the super wealthy buy "priceless" items of art, furniture, jewels, etc? To protect their wealth against the uncertainty of future economic developments, that's why. They don't think "oh, what is my nominal yearly dollar yield on my "wealth". They think instead on much, much longer timelines than most people. And that is what differentiates their wealth preservation "needs" from that of say, my father. See, my father needs his RRSP to produce yearly dollar income for him and my mother to use in their day to day future life, to meet expenses and whatnot. A truly wealthy person? They don't have "income" issues - their stored wealth already produces more than enough yearly "fiat income" that this is not a concern to them.
That is why they can put a million dollars in a piece of artwork, even though they don't know when they'll be able to sell in the future (i.e. it is highly illiquid as an investment) - because they don't, for the most part, have "cash flow" issues. That being the case, they know that due to its relative scarcity, the "collectibles" are only going to appreciate on a go forward basis, so long as you can sell it when you WANT to, not when you HAVE to. They are able to absorb the liquidity-based "time issues" inherent in such "priceless collectibles".
Which reminds me of one of my favourite quotes about money,"Gold is the money of Kings; silver is the money of Gentlemen; barter is the money of Peasants; and debt is the money of Slaves". That is why Another repeatedly went on about being able to "walk in the footsteps of giants" by being able to buy physical gold, a right usually reserved to kings. We just happen to be in a unique period in human history where that opportunity is available to us, and at drastically reduced prices, but I can't sya that will always be the case. And, while I will never own the Mona Lisa, I can own a small little piece of humanity's ultimate collectible.

Paul said...

well sean

that kinda depends om how deep you want to dig into this. you could stop with human passion never changing. but there is lots more to it.

I suggest you read all the articles on the .org site, there you will find lots of clues. his comming book about the geometry of time will no doubt cover the lot. From what I understand of it, everything is fractal, is in rhythm, and moves in cycles, all originating from the big bang.

but I rather let you conclude for yourself, do not want to sound like terry here ...

Ore em' said...

FFS, I hate blogger spam software.

Here is the scribd link again:

SilverHead said...

Thanks Terry but that whitepowder website looks like a domain that is for sale page? It's got a directory to a bunch of other websites - when was the last time you visited it?

Terry said...


Sorry folks.

Edwardo said...

Marty Armstrong's message is not entirely clear to me, and while that may entirely be down to me, it, could, equally be due to a certain lack of clarity in his prose.

To wit:

"The big breakout in GOLD still does not appear to be now. The PHASE TRANSITION to exceptionally high prices will be in the NEXT WAVE, not the conclusion to this wave."

Is the "this wave" in that last sentence referring to the wave ending in June, or the end of the wave that starts in June?

"We still face the readjustment in the economy and it will take some time yet for the DEBT crisis to explode."

One wishes he would define explode.
since the situation seems to be detonating as we speak.

julian said...

Hello All,

I especially enjoyed the first video with the texas fund ceo/cio, b zimmerman. The language used is poignant.


- the association to gold is still "commodity"

- discussing currency, euro yen usd needing value hedge, referencing gold as the counterweight of choice

- there's a lot of politics in moving bullion in size, the channels are narrow (cash acts as grease)

- now that this texas public entity of repute has that physical, they are more confident to attract more venture capital, entrepreneurs, etc (good economy folk) to the geographical region?

- gold 4% of fund value, now 5% of value of fund. mark to market talk. also reminds me that large stores of wealth, institutional or personal, still be diversified in freegold scenario. diversity will always be sought, as gold is not the only thing of value

- references gold as counterpoint to currency movements (to the downside particularly), again mentioning devaluation of currency, and how gold acts as counterbalance – marking to market is essential to freegold mechanics, laws economic in nature

- zimmerman makes his best point here though: "we don't know what the future will hold, no one does"
(these words are helpful against one's own confirmation bias tendencies)

- gold isn't desired nor is it needed for liquidity. fixed income investments do the trick. gold plays its role well.

- they're frontrunning the momentum of the gold value market. the second interviewer asks if it factored in zimmerman's decision, the potential for other institutions to reserve physical gold

- there is a purpose for storing value in gold, zimmerman says, its role being to balance the wealth assets, to hedge the fund against downward action in currencies, gold just sits there to hold things in balance

- towards the end, physical delivery gets the attention. zimmerman says "it's not for everyone" (this is significant; i assume only some have been able to/can still allocate physical in size, otherwise one must accumulate over a long long term)

- zimmerman also says "we can sell at any time" (things will always bid for gold, but will gold always bid for certain things?)

julian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
SilverDoctors said...

Have some fun while we wait for the COMEX default and JP Morgue to burn come May guys!
Make your prediction for silver's May close and win a FREE silver eagle from SilverDoctors!

Blondie said...

Terry said:

"I don't have the necessary skills to run a blog."

Yes you do; you demonstrate them by posting comments here. An internet connection, being able to type, being able to think.

Ore 'em,

"The ad hominem rebuttals and rejection from people who have done well within the existing monetary paradigm are not difficult for me to take."

In fact they are to be expected. I'd be concerned if they didn't come.


re: "Freegolder".
The term is Physical Gold Advocate, or PGA.

Chaiwalla said...

Great debates here on the GSR - I think that working through them is a decent way to get to Freegold enlightenment. Like many precious metals advocates here, I started my journey by buying silver before seeing the light. Tomorrow I'm selling 1000oz of silver bars for krugerrands at the 32.3 GSR, less 1% vig, my first sale of physical silver ever, and I'm very happy with this offer.

Intriguingly and ironically, I think that the super spike that we are going through now in $silver may ultimately mortally damage physical silver from being the store of wealth that its advocates believe. Silver spiking to $100/oz or whatever may cause the breakdown of Comex and the advent of the physical only market. After MUCH pondering I agree with FOFOA, Blondie, costata and others here, in the physical only market, with the giants versus the silverbugs, it is no contest, the silverbugs are going to get creamed. The only hope that I see is that some giant like China re-reserves silver ... but where will they get so much silver? The scarcity and industrial demand of this metal is its undoing as a potential reserve asset.

I still have a lot of silver to exchange, thankfully I have an attractive market to make the sales. I do appreciate the silver advocates here, you have a lot of great ideas and I hope that your ideas continue to get heard here, and I hope you're right ... because I'm not going to exchange it all!

- Chaiwalla

dojufitz said...

Vid on youtube

Silver - There is NO Upper Price Limit!

Joel said...

Man, I go fishing for a couple of days, come back, excitedly open up the blog to get caught up, and the next thing I know I am watching a video from a link talking about "monoatomic gold" (Sir Gardner) , who as it turns out also believes that we were the ancient descendants of freakin' ET Lizards! No offense Terry, glad to hear the substance works for you, but that guy Gardner, (who has heavily promoted MAG all his life), has IMHO, gone off the deep end...

Joel said...


Re: Ore em', great post, but one comment you made intrigued me. You converted to Atheism? You seem to be a very intelligent guy, but just wondering how you got there. Given our recent advances in nano-technology and new found ability to look at the amazing complexity and necessary sequencing of DNA strands for life to exist, intelligent design of some form or fashion seems to be the only logical conclusion. It requires a perfectly sequenced combination of much more complex molecules than amino acids (like insulin, to create human life. But in looking at even the most simplistic requirement for DNA coding, amino acids, chemists have calculated the immense odds against these amino acids ever combining to form the necessary proteins for life to exist by undirected (evolutionary or other happenstance means). They estimate the probability to be more than 10 to the 67th power to 1 against even a small protein forming by time and chance, in an ideal mixture of chemicals, in an ideal atmosphere, and given up to 100 billion years (an age 10 to 20 times greater than the supposed age of the Earth). Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 10 to the 50th have a zero probability of ever happening. Now run those probabilities on an entire human DNA strand, and man, the numbers are what I would call stupid zero chance. For me, the math just doesn’t work for anything other than intelligent design, be it lizard people or a Christian God. I will give you this--your beliefs as an Atheist require much more faith than mine do as a Christian, and I will commend you for having that much faith. Interested in how you buck the numbers.

Re: Freegold, it seems to me we are right on the edge. The dollar is in a state of freefall, with gold up every day .5 to 1% or more. The Fed is stuck, as they can either let interest rates rise to attract new Treasury buyers and destroy the bond markets (and themselves, as they are now leveraged 50:1 like Bear Sterns and Lehman), or keep printing money like a drunken sailor at a roulette table who keeps hoping to hit that double zero. I even doubt that we can attract new buyers without substantial rate increases, and maybe not even then. QE is made to sound like a planned program to “stimulate the economy”, but is really the white elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. But the reality is, we cannot stop QE, because there are no alternative buyers to take out place if we stop! Inflation is the other white elephant that nobody wants to talk about, even with it showing up now almost everywhere. The mainstream media still schilling for Obama, so no investigative journalism going on at all, and the common man (and many of the elite as well) continue to fall prey to the normalcy bias, refusing to see or even discuss rationally what is right in front of them. As a former board member and still an investor in a bank, I cannot get them to even look at what they readily admit is their biggest risk: devaluation of the dollar. They still believe it is non-existent. I will say this, though. While I used to be branded as that “guns, gold, and ammo guy”, they are starting to listen with more and more interest as the days go by. Many of the posters have talked about this inability of bankers, friends and other professionals to get away from their dollar centric viewpoints, but I think their cure is upcoming—as they watch their wealth get destroyed, they will eventually jump ship, although for many it will be too late.
Still no problems yet buying physical, have done several fairly large transactions recently and it is still flowing without a fight, thank goodness.

Keep up the good work FOFOA and others.

Joel said...

Re: Martin Armstrong

As a former energy trader, I know first hand how technical trading can drive markets. However, the big move in gold is not going to be driven by technical buying. It may drive it higher through technical breakouts, but that is not going to create a sea change of buyers. It is the trend to buy gold as a store of wealth, a FUNDAMENTAL change, that will be triggered by a loss of confidence in the currency (seeing shades of that already, dollar index at three year lows) that will drive gold in big moves. It is not something that will be triggered by Fibonachi ratios in an Elliot wave, so watching technicals and reading Armstrong's predictions are valuable for trading profits, but not for the long term paradigm shifts to come.

Motley Fool said...

Heya Desperado

Been a while since I commented here.

From my understanding of the fundamentals, I see the following happening.

Silver will continue appreciating faster than gold ( smaller GSR over time), up to a point. However during the transition the price of silver will fall relative to gold. In terms of speculation, I don't, simply because it's impossible to predict when the transition will occur. So many things could start it off at this point.

The current progression is in line with what I thought would happen, thusfar.

For the record, I hold about 5% of my savings in silver; I bought at roughly $30. I bought it after having read FOFOA's arguments against silver. This simply because I see silver holding relative value much better than most other things during the transition, and I wouldn't want to be forced to trade my gold during this period. My small silver stash is intended for exchange during the transition for food and gas.

If the GSR goes below 10 then I will convert my silver to gold, and accept that I will have to trade gold during the transition. I don't see this happening, but it may be possible during a overshoot.

In the worst case, FOFOA is right about silver and I lose 5% savings. In my view the reasonable scenario is that I have something I am willing to trade when I need. Id be satisfied if I can exchange it at $30 again.

The bulk of my savings is in gold, and the remainder in FIAT I am gradually exchanging into gold. I do not intend to buy any more silver.

As to why gold is more likely to be used as a store of value, the two best arguments are that gold has less industrial use than silver and that the stock-to-flow ratio of gold is waaaaay higher for gold.
So sure, in the short to medium term silver should do better than gold, and then suddenly it wont. :P

Just my foolish opinion.

The Fool

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